Tuesday, June 25, 2024

Smith v. Arizona: The Supreme Court decisively rejects the “in support of the opinion” end run

 

                The Supreme Court decided Smith v. Arizona on Friday.  On the whole, it was a very good decision.  The Court reversed unanimously, with seven justices, all but the Chief Justice and Justice Alito, signing on to the principal parts of Justice Kagan’s opinion for the majority.  On the principal question presented, whether the prosecution can avoid the Confrontation Clause on the ground that a statement is offered in support of an expert opinion, even though the statement supports the opinion only if it is true, that opinion was emphatic and clear: The answer is no.

This post will analyze the justices’ treatment of that question; I will later put up another post addressing their treatment of another question that was not presented by the petition but that gained a great deal of attention at argument, whether the statements in question were testimonial.  Throughout this post I’ll assume that they were indeed testimonial (as I believe they were).

(An aside:  I say “principal question” because the petition also raised the question of whether Smith’s failure to subpoena Rast made any difference for Confrontation Clause analysis.  The petition presented this question because the Arizona appellate court noted that Smith “could have called [Rast] to the stand and questioned her, but he chose not to do so.”  But the Court devoted only one footnote to this question because, as it noted, the state rightly did not defend this rationale.  Melendez-Diaz v.Massachusetts made clear that the defendant’s right to subpoena a witness does not satisfy the confrontation right.)

                Smith was accused of drug-possession crimes.  To prove that the substances in question were illicit drugs, the prosecution relied on the testimony of a lab analyst, Longoni.  But Longoni did not do any testing himself; instead, he based his opinion on statements made by another lab analyst, Rast.  For reasons that were never explained, Rast was no longer employed by the lab at the time of trial, and the state did not attempt to secure her live testimony.  The state argued that, to the extent Rast’s statements were presented to the jury, they were not presented for the truth of matters they asserted, but rather in support of Longoni’s “independent” opinion.  The Arizona courts accepted this argument, even though Rast’s statements would provide no support for Longoni’s opinion unless they were true. But five justices had rejected that theory in Williams v. Illinois; that did not fully resolve the matter, though, because four of those five were in the minority, Justice Thomas joining the other four in concluding (on different grounds from those four) that the lab report there was not testimonial.  So the principal question on which the Smith Court granted cert was whether that was a valid argument. 

                We can assume that, strictly as a matter of modern rules of evidence, Longoni’s testimony would be admissible, under FRE 703 or its state counterparts, or at least would be given a proper foundation. (Arizona has a rule substantively identical to FRE 703.)  But, Justice Kagan noted, “Evidentiary rules . . . do not control the inquiry into whether a statement is admitted for its truth,” because that inquiry “marks the scope of a federal constitutional right.”   (Of course, the same inquiry also is crucial in implementing hearsay law, but she was focusing on the confrontation right.) And “federal constitutional rights are not typically defined . . . by reference to non-constitutional bodies of law like evidence rules.” The “not typically,” she explained in a footnote, was to take into account one qualification: “If an evidentiary rule reflects a long-established understanding, then it might shed light on the meaning of the Confrontation Clause.” But that could not be so here, because Rule 703 “is a product of the late 20th-century, and was understood from the start to depart from past practice.” (This done with a citation to my amicus brief, which only encourages me to keep on submitting them.)

                So, were Rast’s statements presented for their truth?  Justice Kagan – properly, I think – found this a very easy question:

If an expert for the prosecution conveys an out-of-court statement in support of his opinion, and the statement supports that opinion only if true, then the statement has been offered for the truth of what it asserts. How could it be otherwise?

Put another way, she said, the truth of the basis testimony (here Rast’s statements, the basis for Longoni’s opinions) is what makes it useful to the prosecution, because “that is what supplies the predicate for – and thus gives value to – the state expert’s opinion.”  And looked at from another perspective, if the jurors believe the basis evidence to be true, that will lead them to give more credit to the in-court expert’s opinion, and if they believe it false, it will do the opposite.  Thus – a critical passage quoting Justice Thomas’s separate opinion in Williams – “'[t]here is no meaningful distinction between disclosing an out-of-court statement’ to ‘explain an expert’s opinion’ and ‘disclosing that statement for its truth.’” Whatever “label” the state uses,  “in all respects the two purposes merge.”

                The Court then took some of the facts of the case as an “almost-too-perfect illustration” of the general principles it had articulated. Longoni’s entire testimony was predicated on Rast’s findings. If those findings were false, Longoni’s opinion “would have counted for nothing.” Longoni was effectively “Rast’s mouthpiece.” 

                Further, if the practice in this case were approved, it would “allow for easy evasion of the Confrontation Clause,” making Melendez-Diaz and Bullcoming v. New Mexico “a dead letter”: “[E]very testimonial lab report could come into evidence through any trained surrogate, however remote from the case.”

                The Court noted that its decision did not deny experts like Longoni any useful role at trial.  They could testify in general about forensic guidelines and techniques.  If the expert worked in the particular lab, as Longoni did, they could testify from personal knowledge about how that lab operates, including how it maintains chains of custody.  And the expert could be asked hypothetical questions, as to what conclusions followed assuming a given predicate.  Justice Alito jumped on this last possibility, as discussed below.  I believe the Court’s catalog of possibilities, which it did not contend was necessarily exclusive, was completely accurate.  But note – what presumably set Justice Alito off – none of the possibilities appear to allow the prosecution to prove lab results in a particular case without presenting testimony subject to confrontation of an analyst who observed the key case-specific facts.  And that is as it should be.

                So that was clear and straightforward and really excellent.  I’ll raise one sort-of nit.  The Court refers a couple of times (as it has before) to “testimonial hearsay” as being at the core of the Confrontation Clause.  I wish the Court would avoid that phrase, because it tends to minimize the separation between the confrontation right and hearsay doctrine, and that separation was crucial to Crawford.  (Justice Alito’s opinion says that the majority opinion takes the view that “basis testimony is always hearsay,” and that he would remand because Longoni’s testimony “is hearsay under any mainstream conception.”) I understand the temptation – for there to be a Confrontation Clause violation, there has to be a statement that was made out of court and that is offered for the truth of a matter that it asserts, and that’s the basic definition of hearsay.  But that just suggests that the two doctrines have an overlapping area of concern.  If there is a Confrontation Clause violation, it is not because the statement would be deemed to be hearsay – and if a statement avoids exclusion under the hearsay rule, that says nothing about its standing under the Confrontation Clause.

                And now let’s consider Justice Alito’s opinion.  He begins by saying that “the Court inflicts a needless, unwarranted, and crippling wound on modern evidence law.”  Wow! What is that wound?  Well, at considerable length he shows that the presentation of expert testimony in traditional common law was largely dependent on hypothetical questions, and these created significant problems.  So along came Rule 703, and it “replaced” hypotheticals.  And now the Court has “disinterred that procedural monstrosity,” in an “assault on modern evidence law.”

                OK, let’s first bear in mind that it’s just one rule, not all of modern evidence law that’s affected.  And it’s only the implementation of that rule with respect to some prosecution evidence that’s affected:  Evidence in civil trials, or evidence presented by a criminal defendant, has nothing to do with this case, and even with respect to prosecution evidence this decision will have no effect at all if the statement at issue is not testimonial. (Think of a routine blood test taken without any indication that it is for evidentiary purposes, perhaps even before the crime is committed.  And also note that if the in-court expert’s opinion doesn’t depend on the truth of the statement, neither Rule 703 nor the Confrontation Clause comes into play.)  And Rule 703 did not do away with hypotheticals; indeed, the Advisory Committee Note explicitly refers to hypothetical as continuing to be one way of presenting expert evidence.  Putting aside the Confrontation Clause for the moment, it did not even do away in all circumstances with the need to ask a hypothetical question, because the predicate for operation of Rule 703, that experts in the field would rely on the particular type of facts or data in forming an opinion on the subject, will not always be satisfied.  (Note also the Advisory Committee Note to Rule 705, which says that the instances in which counsel is required to make prior disclosure of the facts or data underlying an opinion “are reduced.” 

                What Smith holds is that if (1) a prosecutor seeks to introduce an in-court witness’s opinion, and (2) that witness did not observe the facts supporting the opinion, and (3) the factual basis supporting the opinion is contained in an out-of-court testimonial statement, and (4) that statement supports the opinion only if it is true, and (5) the in-court witness testifies to the substance of that statement but (6) the author of the statement does not testify in court, then there is a Confrontation Clause violation (absent forfeiture, we might add).  That is hardly an assault on modern evidence law.  Nor does it constitute a “trashing” of Rule 703, as Justice Alito suggested at oral argument.  Now, it is true that if there were no Confrontation Clause, Rule 703 would presumably allow the evidence even in this situation.  But so what?  Rule 703 is not only a latter-day creation; it was written at a time when there was no clear conception of what the Confrontation Clause meant, so it is not surprising that it did not take the Clause into account.  And as the Court indicates, and Justice Alito does not deny, the Constitution trumps evidentiary rules, not the other way around.

                But then, eager though Justice Alito is to protect application of Rule 703, how did he get around the Confrontation Clause?  Well, he says, under Rule 703, the evidence is admissible only to support the opinion, and on request the trial judge must instruct the jury to consider it only for that purpose, not for the truth.  So there’s no Confrontation Clause violation; we presume jurors will follow instructions.

                The problem, which he ignores altogether, is that such an instruction makes no sense at all, for a reason indicated by the majority’s quotation from Justice Thomas’s Williams opinion – if the statement supports the opinion only if true, there is “no meaningful distinction” between admitting the statement for its truth and admitting it in support of the opinion.  (Justice Alito overstates the case when he says that “the Court seems to think that all basis testimony is necessarily offered for its truth.”)  This is not a matter of distrusting the jury; it’s a matter of simple logic.  If we instructed the jurors to stand with both feet on the ground while one foot is in the air, it would not be incompetence of the jurors that would prevent them from complying.

                But after all that, Justice Alito still concluded that the trial court erred.  He equates the requirements of the Confrontation Clause in this area (apart from the question of whether the statement in question is testimonial) with those of the Federal Rules of Evidence – a false conjunction, as I have indicated – and says that Longoni could have disclosed the information in Rast’s statements, if, under Rule 703, the court found that the probative value of that information substantially outweighed its prejudicial potential.  “But,” he then said,

he could not testify that any of the information in the report was correct—for instance, that Rast actually performed the tests she recorded or that she did so correctly. Nor could he testify that the items she tested were the ones seized from Smith. Longoni did not have personal knowledge of any of these facts, and it is unclear what “reliable” scientific “methods” could lead him to intuit their truth from Rast’s records. Fed. Rule Evid. 702(c) (defining a permissible expert opinion).

And in this case, Justice Alito says, he agrees with the Court that Longoni “stepped over the line and at times testified to the truth of the matter asserted,” because at times he asserted as true various assertions made by Rast, such as the methods as procedures she followed, the tests she performed, and the results she got.   

Wow again.  First, let’s not slide over what strikes me as a rather large irony.  I have always thought – and I hope readers will correct me if they think I’m wrong – that given certain findings (that the in-court expert is making the type of reasonable reliance on an outside statement that experts in the field make, and that the probative value of the statement outweighs the prejudicial effect) Rule 703 does in fact allow the in-court witness to testify to the truth of that statement, the hearsay rule notwithstanding.  That is why the Rule says that if the reasonable-reliance predicate is satisfied, the underlying facts or data “need not be admissible,” and why Rule 703 is sometimes thought of as an extra hearsay exception.  I suppose one could say that the witness would be allowed to testify, “I relied on this statement, but I’m not saying it is true.”  But what sense does that make?  Unless it’s believed to be true, it provides no support for the opinion.  So is that the type of testimony Justice Alito wants experts to give under Rule 703?  And if so, who is undercutting the usefulness of that Rule, not only when prosecutors attempt to use it to get in testimonial evidence, but across the board?

Second, how far apart in the end is Justice Alito from the majority?  He says that Longoni’s testimony was improper, because in trying to support his opinion he really was testifying to the truth of statements made by the absent Rast.  Gee, sounds a fair amount like the majority.  So I wonder just what is it he thinks Longoni should have been able to do that the majority doesn’t?  Perhaps readers can enlighten me.

A related question:  What if, as Rules 703 and 705 allow, Longoni just testifies to an opinion, without disclosing the underlying statements.  Would the Confrontation Clause tolerate that?  I think it’s clear that under Rules 703 and 705 the defense should be allowed to ask what the basis for the testimony is – and that as soon as the witness discloses the basis we are back in the same position.

In the end, I wonder to what extent Justice Alito and for that matter the Chief Justice too, were motivated by the fact that they appear to have lost this part of the battle.  They were part of a foursome in Melendez-Diaz, Bullcoming, and Williams, and by picking up Justice Thomas’s vote in Williams they were able to get the result they wanted.  But four members of the Court have since left, two from the Melendez-Diaz majority and two from the minority, and all four junior justices joined the Smith majority (on the Melendez-Diaz majority side, Justice Gorsuch for Justice Scalia and Justice Barrett for Justice Ginsburg, and on the minority side Justice Kavanaugh for Justice Kennedy and Justice Jackson for Justice Breyer).  So Justice Alito can snarl all he wants, but on this issue at least he now speaks for only two justices.

12 comments:

Paul said...

Alito & Thomas must really be snarling since there "targeted person" (Alito) & "formality/solemnity" (Thomas) tests are all but buried with the "primary purpose" test (as articulated by the majority) in control. (Just as I predicted in prior posts on this blog.)

Maggie W. said...

"So I wonder just what is it he thinks Longoni should have been able to do that the majority doesn’t?"

I think Justice Alito thinks Longoni should have been able to testify to what Rast's notes said. So, say he testifies that he reviewed Rast's notes. The prosecutor could then ask, "Did you confirm that the notes reported use of standard protocols?" Longoni responds, "Yes, I did." The jury is supposed to think, "Ah, this expert took the meticulous step of verifying that the notes reported proper protocols before he relied on them! What a credible expert! What a careful process!" But he can't say that she actually *did* follow standard procedures.

I think that's a bit of a charade, but as I understand it, that's the idea.

Rothstein said...

From rothstein.
Alito thinks Lingoni could say “I relied on the notes that said…and the report that said…” but Lingoni went further by detailing they were true, which Alito says is bad. Logically there is a very refined difference between the two, i.e. between using them to support your opinion but not vouching for their truth. Supporting opinion may mean just showing you didn’t just say something as ipsi dixit but you relied on examining many sources, not necessarily saying they are true. But this is splitting hairs.
The majority says (differently than what Alito says Lingoni should have said), that the form of the testimony has to be “ASSUMING so and so is true [perhaps including “as the notes and report said”]! my opinion is so and so” and then there must be other proof that so and so is true.

Richard Lempert said...

I thought you did a very nice job in summarizing the majority’s opinion and in most respect Justice Alito’s as well. But I think Alito was not as close to the majority as you suggest. As I read the opinion Alito would have allowed the evidence if the expert had said something like: “I read the findings and notes which Rast who did the drug analysis produced. It is my opinion that she followed all the correct procedures for identifying illegal drugs and based on facts made known to me about her analytic methods and what the chemical analysis yielded my opinion is that the substance found on the defendant was (e.g.) cocaine in the amount of 220 grams.” Had the prosecutor then asked “”can you tell us if the methods you were informed of were state of the art?” with a follow- up of “And what is the error rate associated with that method?” I think that Alito would have found that neither of these questions violated the confrontation clause, although they both implicitly claim that what Rast found and what Valentin’s testimony is based on is true.
I think Alito concurred because Longini’s testimony contained some statements like, “The best way to test for cocaine is X , which is the method that Rast reported using.” Thus he is referencing a statement Rast made and claiming it as true.
As for your helpful reminder if the changed views of some Justices since Williams, I wonder if the OSAC activities setting standards for the forensics sciences, of which they are most likely aware, has had an effect. I think at the time of Melendez-Diaz the dissenters were thinking that requiring the lab analyst to testify was ridiculous because the DNA evidence was so obviously indisputable, a conclusion that was soon shown to be wrong when it turned out that a Massachusetts forensic scientist was drylabing her results.
BTW I noticed the cite to your amicus brief in a footnote. A citation to an amicus is a rarity - congratulations.

Jacob Berlove said...

All this won't make any difference in the end. There are no more than 4 votes on the Supreme Court to grant the confrontation right when the notes or report were made for "quality control" or to "comply with laboratory accreditation requirements". Scalia and Ginsburg wouldn't have put up with this nonsense, but they are dead. That language was almost certainly a deal-breaker for Kavanaugh (who was very interested in Justice Thomas's formality/solemnity test at oral argument, but was happy to go along with an easily evaded primary purpose test instead), and most likely Justice Barrett agrees with that bottom line as well. Never mind that the notes were prepared in anticipation of likely being used at trial.

Anonymous said...

Near the end of your comment, you suggest that Justices Alito and Roberts were a bit melodramatic about the outcome in Smith because, in part, the opinion relates to “just one rule” in modern evidence law. The thing is, it’s kind of a BIG rule and it applies across the board to all parties in criminal and civil cases.

Since we are all going to have to get used to using hypotheticals again, I’ll toss out just one hypothetical scenario to contemplate in a post-Smith world:

A plane crashes and many people die. A team of dozens of people from various agencies (public and private), examine the wreckage, catalogue the items, take measurements, and make all manner of observations which they record in various documents.

Civil lawsuit is filed. FRE apply. Experts for both the plaintiffs and defendants review all the materials and documents and reach myriad opinions about the cause of the crash and those opinions are based in large part on the compilation of the statements and reports generated by the aforementioned dozens of people. Both parties want to call their experts at trial. Both experts’ opinions are dependent on the truth of various recorded measurements and observations made by non-testifying people (the testifying experts would answer, “yes” if asked, “if [particular] measurement or observation was wrong, would your opinion be different?”)

Must both parties now find an independent hearsay exception for each and every out-of-court statement that is essential to their testifying expert’s opinion? Hmm.

As written, Smith is a hearsay opinion, not a Confrontation Clause opinion, and the majority seems to want to downplay that fact.

The Court IMHO did not proceed wisely when, after 11 + years of glorious silence, it chose Smith as a way to dive back into the expert testimony-meets-Confrontation Clause pit of despair.

Would it not have been prudent for the Court to FIRST take a case that addressed the question of how to determine which statements are “testimonial” in a drug chemist/toxicologist/DNA analyst/latent print examiner’s casefile and/or report? And doesn’t the Court essentially acknowledge that the threshold question should be the “testimonial” question in the Smith opinion and disposition?

As Justice Kagan notes in Smith, “To implicate the Confrontation Clause, a statement must be hearsay (“for the truth”) and it must be testimonial- and those two issues are separate from each other.” Smith, Slip Op. at 19.

So why throw the baby out with the bathwater with this case (an unpublished state-level drug crime)? I’ll borrow your language from the end of your comment in my own speculation… “I wonder to what extent [Justices Thomas, Kagan, and Sotomayor] were motivated by the fact that they appear[ed] to have lost this part of the battle [in Williams].”

Michael Tumposky said...

Great analysis. I agree with just about everything you said except for the following:

>>A related question: What if, as Rules 703 and 705 allow, Longoni just testifies to an opinion, without disclosing the underlying statements. Would the Confrontation Clause tolerate that? I think it’s clear that under Rules 703 and 705 the defense should be allowed to ask what the basis for the testimony is – and that as soon as the witness discloses the basis we are back in the same position.>>

I think in that scenario the court would comfortably find a waiver or simply that the evidence was not being offered "against" the defendant.

As to the difference between the concurrence and the majority, I think it comes down to semantics. Basically, Alito would be fine with the expert repeating the conclusions of the non-testifying expert, but not attesting to their accuracy...a silly distinction of course if you give it any real thought.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rich Friedman said...

Thanks to all commenters. A few words in response. The comments by Paul (no last name given, but it looks like long-time reader Paul Vinegrad) and Jacob (Melech) Berlove, and in part the one by Anonymous, relate to the question of whether the statements at issue were testimonial, a question I’ll address in a separate post.

As to the hypothetical plane-crash case posed by Anonymous, Smith would have no bearing whatsoever. That’s a civil case, and the Confrontation Clause simply has no bearing. Anonymous says that Smith is a “hearsay opinion, not a Confrontation Clause opinion.” I don’t understand that assertion (but I think it might reinforce my complaint that in Confrontation Clause cases the Court should not speak of “testimonial hearsay”). Smith came from a state court, and the Supreme Court has no authority with respect to state evidentiary law. The states, and for that matter the federal courts, can continue to apply their versions of Rule 703 outside the confrontation context (prosecution trying to use an out-of-court testimonial statement) as if Smith never happened.

Maggie W(ittlin), Michael Tumposky, (Paul) Rothstein, and perhaps Rick Lempert, give rather similar renditions of what Alito would allow, essentially, as I understand it, that Longoni could testify to what Rast said, and that he relied on it, but not that what she said is true. Perhaps so, and if so, as Maggie, Paul, and Michael all say, the difference is very thin. I suppose the defense could puncture the difference by asking, “Would Rast’s statements provide any support for your opinion if they were not true?” The answer to that would have to be no, right? And then doesn’t even the veneer disappear?

As for my suggestion that if Longoni just testifies to an opinion, without disclosing the underlying statements, and the defense asks what the basis for the testimony is, Michael says that in that situation the court “would comfortably find a waiver of simply that the evidence was not being offered ‘against’ the defendant.” Perhaps, but I’d push back against that: I’d say that Longoni was acting as a conduit for Rast’s findings, as in the actual Smith case, and the defense was simply exposing that fact. (Alternatively, the defense could ask to question Longoni on the basis for his evidence out of the presence of the jury, to make the conduit point clear.) Or perhaps, instead of asking the open-ended question of what Longoni’s basis is, the defense could confirm, “You didn’t observe the facts essential to your opinion, right? So you are relying on statements that you have received to which you have not testified today, right? And if those statements were not true, then you would have no basis for your opinion, right?” How about that?

Anonymous said...

Hearsay is an out-of-court statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted, regardless of who is offering it or if it is being offered in a civil or criminal case.

So if the Supreme Court has declared that the type of out-of-court statements elicited during the expert testimony in Smith were, in fact, “offered for the truth of the matter asserted,” how would the same manner of evidence offered through an expert by a defendant in a criminal case or either party in a civil case not also be “hearsay” and thus require an exception if applicable state or federal evidence rules preclude the admission of hearsay?

Anonymous said...

If I understand Prof. F’s response to the hypothetical comment correctly, this is where he says we are at:

The Rule 703 (or state equivalent) hearsay “back door” is still open for plaintiffs/defendants in civil cases, defendants in criminal cases, and prosecutors in criminal cases (as long as the hearsay is non-testimonial). The door has only been shut for prosecutors who seek to utilize a 703-ish evidentiary rule related to expert basis testimony for underlying hearsay that is “testimonial.”

Assuming this very simplistic summary is correct, that kind of brings me back to the part of the Alito/Roberts concurrence discussing limiting instructions and Bruton. Why is the admission of this type of evidence being elevated to the level of a Bruton violation? (especially where there is case law establishing that a limiting instruction can cure a Confrontation Clause violation and where a CC violation can be harmless).

Richard Friedman said...

In response to Anonymous's 9:48 comment: IF the evidence were offered by the accused, or by either party in a civil case, then of course the Confrontation Clause would not apply. So Rule 703, allowing the evidence in support of the opinion even though it would not otherwise be admissible, would apply without difficulty. Thus, it acts in effect as a hearsay exception, but through the thin veil of saying the outside statement is being offered in support of the opinion. But when the Confrontation Clause is at stake, that veil does not work. Whether a statement is being presented for the truth of what it asserts must be determined as a matter of constitutional law, as Justice Kagan's opinion makes clear, and the Court has now (properly) held that when the statement supports the opinion only if true presenting it in support of the opinion is presenting it for its truth.

And in response to the 10:18 comment: I believe the summary is correct. I don't think this is comparable to Bruton. It's not that we're afraid that the jury won't follow an instruction of limited use. IT's that such an instruction in this case makes no sense. That is, in this setting telling the jurors that they may use the statement in support of the opinion but that they may not use it for the truth of what it asserts is impossible given that the statement supports the opinion only if true.

By the way, in my post I complained about the use of the term "testimonial hearsay," just because it tends to much together confrontation and hearsay doctrines. As a reminder of the concern, note Kelly v. State, 2024 WL 3196072 (Tex. Ct. Apps. June 27, 2024), 2024 WL 3196072, decided just yesterday. The defendant objected on Confrontation Clause grounds to use of a statement made by his nephew during a police interrogation, but the trial court held it admissible under the conspirator exemption to the hearsay rule. Just how the judge thought that this statement would further the conspiracy is a mystery, but put that aside. The appellate court properly held that "even if an out-of-court statement is admissible under the evidentiary rules, the Confrontation Clause may still require the statement's exclusion if it is testimonial in nature," and it reversed.